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They don’t know any better.

02 Apr

Typical Doug Wilson bullshit. Excuse women; blame men

Dalrock

Doug Wilson explains why the pro life movement objects to passing laws which would punish mothers who abort their children along with the abortionists who assist them in doing so.  His claim is that women who get abortions don’t know that abortion involves killing an unborn child, but abortionists do:

We are dealing with millions of cases. It is the view of politically active pro-lifers that the penalties should fall on those who know what they are doing. Medically trained doctors know exactly what they are doing. The ghouls at Planned Parenthood know exactly what they have been selling.

And the view about the mothers, taken as a class, is that they have been fraudulently manipulated into a form of negligent manslaughter. That kind of problem is best answered with information — ultrasounds and more. This is why pro-lifers for decades have offered support, information, care, and medical services…

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26 responses to “They don’t know any better.

  1. feeriker

    April 2, 2016 at 10:10 pm

    Wilson most certainly should know better than to scribble such drivel.

    As Bugs Bunny would say: “What a maroon!”

     
  2. Sanne

    April 3, 2016 at 2:43 am

    According to this link
    http://law.jrank.org/pages/445/Abortion-Abortion-in-English-law.html
    abortion in England only became a criminal offence in the 19th century. Before it fell under church jurisdiction and was seldom prosecuted or if proved, punished by penance. They also made distinctions between early and late-term abortions.

    While it’s ridiculous to suggest that women procuring abortions are all victims, the point is if abortion is forbidden, how are you going to prosecute the woman? How do you prove she had one? Will all women who miscarried be subject to police investigation? It’s much easier to prosecute the abortionist.

    According to this link
    https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2014/apr/30/why-are-women-more-opposed-to-abortion

    more women support abortion restrictions than men by the margin of 20%

    Not quite what some men would like you to believe, is it?

     
    • Will S.

      April 3, 2016 at 8:25 am

      I realize there is a potential difficulty in proving an abortion occurred, and I don’t have easy answers, in that regard.

      Interesting, those British polls. I’m glad that’s so, over there.

       
  3. Peter Blood

    April 3, 2016 at 5:04 pm

    This is a good article on the subject, The Pro-Life Movement (TM): Just another branch of victimhood feminism

    There’s some interesting discussion in the comments, too, about different a approach to the whole thing.

     
  4. fodderwing

    April 3, 2016 at 10:24 pm

    Doug Wilson is saying that the punishment belongs to the abortionists, the providers. They do the killing. Trump should have said this.

    A couple in my area who run an abortion counseling “rescue” operation tell me that the single most often given answer to the question “why do you want an abortion” is pressure from a spouse or boyfriend. Lots of people are involved in the slaughter, but the doctor does the killing.

     
    • Will S.

      April 3, 2016 at 10:37 pm

      Yes, but they do so at the behest of the would-be mothers’ requests. It’s like a mafia boss putting a hit on someone, having a hit-man carry it out; the hit-man commits the murder, but his boss paying him to do it is just as guilty.

      (Yes, I realize the difficulty of burden of proof, as discussed above; I don’t have any easy answers. I’d rather have the law be right, and punish all responsible, rather than act as if only those who do the killing are responsible.)

      Yes, yes, we all know that boyfriends / husbands may sometimes pressure women. So what? Women have moral agency, they’re not helpless victims; frankly, it’s insulting to them to consider them always the victims in these situations, instead of recognizing their role, in making the decision to abort. They know what they’re doing, they’re stopping a human from being born, which means snuffing out a life. Wilson is wrong to let them off the hook by fraudulently claiming they don’t realize what they’re doing; they know damn well.

       
      • bluebird of bitterness

        April 4, 2016 at 12:47 pm

        I’m not disagreeing with what you say, Will. But as a practical matter, no law that restricted or limited abortion in any way has even a ghost of a chance of passing if it involves punishing pregnant women who seek abortions. Whether it makes sense or not, that’s reality. I’ve been involved in prolife work for almost forty years, and everyone in the movement is more interested in saving innocent lives than we are in punishing women.

         
      • Will S.

        April 4, 2016 at 12:58 pm

        Yeah, I’m not sure how one would go about proving an abortion occurred without the testimony of those who got them, since indeed the fetuses would likely end up incinerated or otherwise disposed of.

        Saving innocent lives would be ideal; that’s the main point behind any laws that would outlaw abortion – to deter it by making it illegal, and now having the State endorsing the practice by having it legal.

         
  5. feeriker

    April 3, 2016 at 11:21 pm

    [F]rankly, it’s insulting to them to consider them always the victims in these situations, instead of recognizing their role

    If it frees them of any responsibility for their actions, especially from adverse consequences, most women –and sadly, plenty of men too– are perfectly willing to be insulted, degraded, demeaned, and infantilized.

     
    • Will S.

      April 3, 2016 at 11:27 pm

      Indeed; alas…

       
  6. Sanne

    April 4, 2016 at 3:10 am

    Pro-lifers in North America will never win because of their extreme rhetoric. In most European countries, the distinction is made between early and late term abortions, the latter are forbidden (and yes, in my country there was a case several years ago with the state prosecuting a woman who obtained illegal abortion abroad. I think they had to drop it under the pressure from progressives, but it proves that the possibility exists). Because if every embryo is a human being then every IVF clinic is a slaughterhouse. Obviously, most people disagree.

    As someone pointed out in that discussion thread you link to, even when abortions were illegal, women were seldom prosecuted which makes me wonder whether for some folks it’s about stopping abortions or punishing women. According to the link I posted, abortion was never viewed as murder (even a late-term one) until the 19th century when the government started actively interfering into private affairs of people and taking upon itself the traditional responsibilities of the church to uphold moral behaviour. Look where it brought us in the end.

    Also, in patriarchy, a married woman historically wasn’t fully responsible for her behaviour as she was “covered” by her husband.

     
    • Will S.

      April 4, 2016 at 8:38 am

      For my part, I would like there to be as few abortions occurring as possible, and I want them to be against the law.

      The State has always legislated morality, insofar as its laws proscribing various behaviours – e.g. laws against theft – have always come from moral principles – e.g. that theft is wrong – which, in the West, means from the church.

      I could happily live with some of the imperfections of patriarchy if modern-day women would, en masse, consent to returning to it, as a system.

       
  7. Sanne

    April 4, 2016 at 9:16 am

    Yes, it’s true, the state always prosecuted murder, but they didn’t prosecute abortion until later. I wonder why. As for patriarchy, first you’ll have to convince men to return to it:)

     
    • Will S.

      April 4, 2016 at 9:40 am

      Well, we stand for patriarchy, and aren’t either MGTOWs or PUAs here. 🙂

       
  8. Sanne

    April 4, 2016 at 11:45 am

    BTW, off topic about Doug Wilson. He has an absolutely unbelievable post saying that slut-shaming is un-Biblical and un-Christian. I can’t even!

     
    • Will S.

      April 4, 2016 at 11:53 am

      I’m not surprised. Nothing he could say any more will ever surprise me, again.

       
    • Will S.

      April 4, 2016 at 11:55 am

      Can you give me the link, though? I’d like to see it.

       
  9. Sanne

    April 4, 2016 at 1:05 pm

    https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/slut-shaming-gospel-grace.html#disqus_thread

    You know Will, sometimes I think that manospherians are exaggerating when they talk about churchianity and stuff. And then I read this…

     
    • Will S.

      April 4, 2016 at 1:11 pm

      Thanks!

      Yep. We’re not.

       
  10. Sanne

    April 4, 2016 at 1:09 pm

    And after going on about double standards, the sins of patriarchy and evil men he ends by attacking Trump and his wife. Talk about hypocrisy!

     
    • Will S.

      April 4, 2016 at 1:12 pm

      Indeed. And he’s completely unaware that he’s engaging in it. Eye, meet the log in you.

       

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