In a recent private conversation between Council members, Ulysses highlighted this essay at NRO, which highlighted this Relevant magazine piece, which reported on a Gallup poll study which found that 80% of single evangelicals aged 18-29 are sexually active.
Coincidentally, Aunt Haley at Haley’s Halo weighed in on the same subject at her blog, with a great short observation, here, really a re-iteration of points she’d already made, actually, in expanded form, in an excellent previous post here.
It seems so obvious, as I commented on that post there, that the way out of desire for illicit sex… is fulfilment of the desire for sex through the licit, appropriate, God-honouring means. Which means to get married sooner rather than later…
On a strategic level, that means, people re-prioritizing marriage as a more important life goal than education and career, and perhaps, instead of waiting till done with college and getting established in a career, getting married much younger, before even going off to college, or at least early in their college years, rather than waiting.
A simple solution, really. Yet not easy, though, to get people to buck the societal consensus, particularly when all too many Christians wish to ape the world’s pattern, rather than be counter-cultural, willing to swim against the tide of societal and even, alas, parental expectations – all too many Christian parents push their kids to make education and career the most important consideration after secondary school, unfortunately.
But, this is the only way to solve this problem, far as I can see.
Thoughts?
P.S. Ulysses’ previous post here raises points relevant to this discussion, IMO.
Patriactionary 
Master Po
December 16, 2011 at 1:06 pm
Yep… and shut their eyes and ears to the unpalatable facts that they don’t want to be true. I doubt seriously that the statistics are much different for Catholics–could actually be worse since Catholics are more likely to consider themselves “Catholic” on the basis of the reception of one or more sacrament alone even if they haven’t been to mass in a zillion years. Evangelicals, on the other hand, would I think be far less likely to consider themselves “Evangelical” if they were not, at least occasionally, darkening the door of an actual Evangelical church.
My wife and I, evangelicals at the time, married young (22 and 21 respectively). Why? My opinion: guilt free sex. There were other reasons, but that’s the one I remember. Was that a good reason? Probably not. Were we ready to make our way in the world? If measured by determination alone, perhaps, but we were both working menial, dead-end jobs. If it hadn’t been for the happy surprise of our first son about two years later (we actually had about 9 months warning), I wouldn’t have gotten the kick in the ass I needed to really achieve “something in the world”… well… really just get a good enough job for us to be comfortable. (Actually had our second kid when I was in grad school.) It’s a gigantic story, I should tell it some time… But to make a short story long, 8 kids and 22 years later, we came out okay.
I don’t pretend that my experience is normal, nor that it is necessarily normative, but early marriage hasn’t hurt me, and, as it has been the rule for most of the past 10,000 years, it’s hard to see how it has hurt society at large. On a case by case basis, it could be detrimental, but in general Early Marriage is the right thing to do.
We American, Westerners, Evangelicals are no exceptions, neither are Catholics, make a fetish out of career and money and safety, and come up with post hoc rationalizations for it that suit our temperaments and/or religions. It’s all bullshit. Man was put on this earth to, among other things, make more men (i.e., procreate). This is the natural vocation for most people. And doing that vocation is the most pleasurable, most rewarding thing on earth. Women especially should use their years between 18 and 21, the absolute pinacle of their own SMV, to choose the best damn guy they can get, marry him, submit to him, and commence to the making of babies. Guys should use that time to get prepared to make a clean break with dependency on parents, do whatever it takes to get a career, marry that woman and master her.
Will S.
December 16, 2011 at 1:33 pm
Agreed. All of life is a struggle, and what of it? That’s the way of things. It surely is far better for society, when most people get married young, and start having children.
One of the biggest reasons for the West’s declining birthrate is how late families are formed, if at all… With people putting off marriage until quite late, and many more just shacking up together, it’s no wonder our birthrates are in decline – while others, like Muslims in the Middle East, not to mention some of those amongst us – at least for the first generation – are not… Of course, our society is far too individualist today to even care about such a collective problem…
BTW, this one of the “young whippersnappers” (as you called us the other day) is only a half-decade younger than you. I just seem young, because I’m just extremely immature for my age. 😉
Actually, in person, I often get mistaken for much younger than I am, too. Funny, that.
Master Po
December 16, 2011 at 2:00 pm
You can’t have it all. And besides, even if you could, where the hell would you put it?
Truth is, I think we may already be turning a corner. Perhaps it is the weak (and likely to get far worse) economy. The college bubble, in spite of the inane blatherings of our ruling class, is getting exposed as a fraud. Whether the current malaise ends in deflationary black hole or a hyper-inflationary apocalypse (the only two realistic end-games IMO), I think the both the demographic and moral future looks brighter than we might otherwise estimate.
BTW, I found out Mrs. Po occasionally reads the blog, so don’t be surprised if she chimes in from time to time, even if only to get in my cross-hairs.
Master Po
December 16, 2011 at 2:02 pm
Re: half-decade: You’re never less than a generation older than your oldest kid, nor more than a generation older than your youngest.
Will S.
December 16, 2011 at 2:02 pm
It will be interesting to see, if the long economic downturn, forces social changes, in a good direction. One can hope and pray it does…
Well, she will be welcome, as long as she’s as bright and thoughtful as you, approximately. 🙂
Will S.
December 16, 2011 at 2:05 pm
Yeah, age is a state of mind. I’d like to think I’m both an older young man, and a young old fart, simultaneously, at this close-to-40 yet bachelor, state of life, I find myself at. 🙂
Master Po
December 16, 2011 at 2:11 pm
So currently that makes me not less than 45 and not more than 27. How’s that? Maybe I had it right the first time.
Will S.
December 16, 2011 at 2:12 pm
I dunno, but I already fixed it for you; you want me to put it back? 🙂
Master Po
December 16, 2011 at 2:15 pm
Oh sure. I’ll beg for an edit… if I really need it. Usually I can just poke some fun at myself… like I was trying to do here. But yeah, with the edits, it’s hard to tell what’s going on.
Will S.
December 16, 2011 at 2:22 pm
I just try to be helpful, if someone makes a typo and catches it – or even if they don’t but I recognize it – or mis-word something. It’s something I’ve always wished I could do with my own comments at others’ blogs, but not everyone is as thoughtful and considerate as I am. 😉
At the photoblog Flickr, you can always edit your own comments (though not other people’s; only erasing them, if you wish, on your own photos). That can be a good or a bad thing, I suppose. But mostly I think it’s a good thing, a feature more blogs should have. The only trouble being if someone changes their words and tries to claim they said something else.
Rusty Shackleford
December 16, 2011 at 3:30 pm
I fall into these demographics. I can attest to how hard it is to find a nice (preferably Catholic) girl. I’m not perfect either, but I know I’d have no problem being chaste with a woman who is dedicated to it as well.
My track record on attracting skanks isn’t bad though. Not that that’s a good thing, but it supports my point and the point of the post – women, even the churchgoing ones, tend to be pretty loose these days.
Will S.
December 16, 2011 at 3:55 pm
“women, even the churchgoing ones, tend to be pretty loose these days.”
Indeed; alas…
“I know I’d have no problem being chaste with a woman who is dedicated to it as well.”
I’m the same way…
Master Po
December 16, 2011 at 4:06 pm
Geez, Will, and here I’ve been harping on Svar to get a woman. You need one… and no more bullshit about contraception until you’ve a reason to sacrafice your immortal soul for it. 😉
Tanner
December 16, 2011 at 4:16 pm
“On a strategic level, that means, people re-prioritizing marriage as a more important life goal than education and career, and perhaps, instead of waiting till done with college and getting established in a career, getting married much younger, before even going off to college, or at least early in their college years, rather than waiting.”
I’m Mormon and my church still pushes this idea pretty hard. Is it not happening in the rest of Christianity any more? Not only are we told to not wait to get married but the same goes for having children.
Will S.
December 16, 2011 at 4:24 pm
@ MP: Do I, now? I’m not so sure. Maybe I am called to the Reformed quasi-monastic life! 😉
Elspeth
December 16, 2011 at 4:36 pm
I pegged you for about 30, Will. Is that a whippersnapper, LOL?
Well, I know in the larger culture it is, but among us traditional religious types you should be approaching your 10th anniversary and welcoming the arrival of your 4th son.
Seriously though, early marriage was good to us. My husband would readily admit that having a wife and kid at 21 made a man out him faster than probably anything else could have.
I wonder why parents (including Christian parents) promote a lengthened adolescence? What is the point?
Master Po
December 16, 2011 at 5:17 pm
Maybe I am called to the Reformed quasi-monastic life!
And the Reformed Pope* can grant you an Official Apostolate?
*Whoever he (or she?) is…
Master Po
December 16, 2011 at 5:53 pm
I wonder why parents (including Christian parents) promote a lengthened adolescence? What is the point?
I think mommies and daddies don’t want to formally conclude that their little precious is all grown up now… WITH ALL THE GROWN UP DESIRES that that would necessarily entail. Of course, College Before Marriage is the absolute worst place to send them at that point… I would rather a daughter of mine get knocked up (AND THEN MARRY) some (decent) local guy than have them go away and slut it up at College. And, come to think of it, I’d prefer my sons to be that local guy for someone else’s daughter than have them off sampling the College poontang, and contracting Lord knows what… STDs being the least of my worries.
Svar
December 16, 2011 at 6:44 pm
@ MP
“I doubt seriously that the statistics are much different for Catholics–could actually be worse since Catholics are more likely to consider themselves “Catholic” on the basis of the reception of one or more sacrament alone even if they haven’t been to mass in a zillion years”
Yep.
@ Rusty
“I can attest to how hard it is to find a nice (preferably Catholic) girl. I’m not perfect either, but I know I’d have no problem being chaste with a woman who is dedicated to it as well.”
Yep, Catholic school girls can be the worst. Btw, it’s good to see ya around, Rusty.
@ Will
“I’m the same way…”
Me too. I wouldn’t pay full-price for used goods or pressure a girl who is actually serious.
@ MP
“Geez, Will, and here I’ve been harping on Svar to get a woman. “
Well, I’m a really young man, so I have a bunch of time on my hands.
Kathy
December 16, 2011 at 7:00 pm
“On a strategic level, that means, people re-prioritizing marriage as a more important life goal than education and career, and perhaps, instead of waiting till done with college and getting established in a career, getting married much younger, before even going off to college, or at least early in their college years, rather than waiting”
Indeed, Will.. My own daughter who is fifteen will not be going to college. She’s a smart girl. Pretty too. (just ask Svar he’s seen a pic 😉 )
However, she is not interested in a career, loves kids and wants to get married.. More than likely she will do a course in child care, then get a job.. Her father and I have never encouraged her to get a “career”
Going to college is not the be all and the end all, that many make it out to be. I agree with you Master Po, that College before marriage is probably the worst place for them… especially for girls.
I think (feminist infused) college changes women’s opinions of themselves, and not for the better! They often end up with over inflated egos and silly notions of superior intellect and abilities..As a result these women often eschew early marriage to a good man.. to their own detriment.. Many are sorry later on when they find that there are no good men left to marry and to have a family with..
How dumb is that???
A college degree won’t keep her warm at night… 😉
How much edumacation do ya need to get married, knocked up and to be a good wife and mother?
Priorities are certainly skewed in today’s materialistic world… The best thing that parents can do is to lead by example. Mothers need to “educate” their daughters in the ways of the world.. They also need to get back to basics and to teach them how to cook, keep house and look after a husband..
Women just don’t seem to be doing much of that anymore.. Sadly..
Svar
December 16, 2011 at 7:34 pm
“She’s a smart girl. Pretty too. (just ask Svar he’s seen a pic 😉 ) ”
Well, I couldn’t tell how smart she is, but yeah, Kathy’s right, she’s a looker.
Rusty Shackleford
December 16, 2011 at 7:49 pm
Yep, Catholic school girls can be the worst.
Parents, particularly fathers, are responsible for sculpting their children’s character. Parents assume that because they drop their kids off at a religious school, the kids should become more holy – that’s not how it works. Academic catechesis is worthless unless it is patterned into a person’s behavior, and that can only come from a real authority figure.
I can’t stress it enough. Fathers HAVE to be the ones personally directing a child’s morality. I know a lot of daddy’s girls that have never had a lick of discipline from their fathers, and it shows… they tend to be the most deceptively dysfunctional of all women. Generally sweet, always girly, but can’t bring themselves to behave like women. At least you know what you are getting yourself into with the blatant femiskanks.
Will S.
December 16, 2011 at 7:50 pm
@ Tanner: No, what you term ‘the rest of Christianity’ is not completely, but fairly thoroughly, infected with the spirit of the world, in this regard, alas.
@ Elspeth: I’m almost 39.
@ MP: Reformed Pope? Er, R.C. Sproul? 😉
@ Svar: Yeah, if a girl is worthy, it’d be fairly easy, I should think, to behave.
@ Kathy: Our world has it completely ass-backwards, alas…
Elspeth
December 16, 2011 at 9:44 pm
Oh, you’re only a year and a few months younger than me, Will. I’m not sure where I got the impression that you were much younger.
Will S.
December 16, 2011 at 9:45 pm
Probably because I act so immature for my age, sometimes. 😉
Laceagate
December 17, 2011 at 12:53 am
I wonder why parents (including Christian parents) promote a lengthened adolescence? What is the point?
Often, many parents don’t realize that they are promoting a lengthened adolescence, and instead view it as promoting opportunities. We then have the following arguments (that I’ve heard from others and from parents, and from my own parents):
1. “You need to live your life.” That is not a good thing to say to a hormone-enriched 17 or 18 year old, especially coupled with the push to get them out of your house. When you say this to a young adult, they aren’t going to think about having boundaries and maintaining certain expectations. They’re going to think, “Okay, I’m going to live it up.” We can use our imaginations.
2. “I don’t want you to have any regrets.” No…I think the problem here is that parents are vicariously living through their children, and thus are saying “Since I have regrets, I don’t want you to have any either, so do #1.” These two create a vicious cycle unless a young adult is able to take a step back and truly reflect on their life. Young adults don’t always recognize the difference between taking calculated risks and just making stupid decisions.
3. “We didn’t come to this country for you to not go to college.” I say this as a child of immigrant parents, and it is a continuing echo from other first-generation immigrant children. True, countries like Canada, the U.S., the U.K., etc. provide many opportunities. But, they should allow for more open doors to choose from, not pushing them through one while ignoring the others.
4. “You have to be well-educated.” There is a difference between being a smart person, an intelligent person, and an educated person. I have met educated smart people who had no intelligence to speak of, and I have met intelligent and self-educated people. The problem we currently face is education is stored in a tin can called “The University,” and in order to be eating the “real” stuff, you need to buy the tin can. Too bad the tin can is susceptible to vices such as botulism
liberalism, but people pay for it, and eat it anyway.5. Responsible and mature behavior isn’t encouraged or expected. I see this with people in my ethnic community and other ethnic communities. You have a young adult in college, but the parents don’t want them to work, contribute much to the household, etc. How can anyone reasonably expect a young adult who is not expected to hold permanent employment, contribute finances to the household, or perform labor, to be ready for marriage and creating a family? Many of these parents still want their children to be living with them past 21 (and there is nothing inherently wrong with that) and don’t expect much. Maybe getting married would force these individuals to grow up quickly and get their acts together, but those people are rare.
A lengthened adolescence promoting irresponsible behavior and virtually no accountability gives young adults a free card to indulge in any behavior they so choose. There aren’t any marriage prospects in mind, there isn’t the attitude of pre-planning for the future, and education is an idol. It’s about indulgence, and it’s indulgence in sex without responsibilities. I might sound harsh, but this is my assessment based on what I observed with my peers when I was about 21.
Will S.
December 17, 2011 at 1:08 am
Spot on, Lacey.
Matthew
December 17, 2011 at 1:40 am
One of the (paradoxically) funny and sick things about American adolescence is that young men and women are expected to get the fuck out when they graduate high school or turn 18. My daughter will be … ahem … encouraged to stay in our house until I give her over to another male’s authority, and my sons are welcome to live with us as long as they will.
Will S.
December 17, 2011 at 1:45 am
Sensible, indeed. I presume they will contribute, too, economically, to the household, to at least partially ‘earn their keep’, as well as learn the responsibilty that comes with holding down a job, etc.?
Laceagate
December 17, 2011 at 1:57 am
One of the (paradoxically) funny and sick things about American adolescence is that young men and women are expected to get the fuck out when they graduate high school or turn 18.
Many of them barely know how to balance a checkbook or do their own laundry, but are supposed to move out when they turn 18. It seems nowadays, more American young adults know how to have sex compared to knowing basic familial/household duties.
Will S.
December 17, 2011 at 1:59 am
Yep.
Will S.
December 17, 2011 at 8:14 am
Note to anyone visiting Aunt Haley’s Halo: using the terms ‘homo’ or ‘queer’ for homosexual men is not advised, as you’ll apparently be threatened with being stuck in moderation.
Interesting.
Svar
December 17, 2011 at 9:50 am
“Note to anyone visiting Aunt Haley’s Halo: using the terms ‘homo’ or ‘queer’ for homosexual men is not advised, as you’ll apparently be threatened with being stuck in moderation.
Interesting.”
It’s always annoying when Haley decides to get menstrual.
Will S.
December 17, 2011 at 9:56 am
LOL, exactly.
Kathy
December 17, 2011 at 10:04 am
She’s a nutjob. 😀
Will S.
December 17, 2011 at 10:08 am
🙂
I think living in L.A., and working in the entertainment industry, has ‘sensitized’ her or something.
Svar
December 17, 2011 at 10:31 am
“I think living in L.A., and working in the entertainment industry, has ‘sensitized’ her or something.”
Interesting. Spending so much time in Texas has really desensitized me, OTOH. Hence the conversations you, Matthew, and I tend to have.
Is it just me, or does anyone really care if an anal-raider sheds a tear in his cosmo? Does Haley think that homos are going to read Evangelical blogs? Evangelicals are like the betas of Christendom: they pander and pander to the world and everyone STILL hates them, probably even more for their beta-pandering. Being Orthodox is the best, but I’d rather be a Fundie than an Evangelical.
Evangelicalism is basically fad-based Churchianity. What was it that G.K. Chesterton say about fad-based faiths……..?
Will S.
December 17, 2011 at 10:39 am
Yeah, evangelicals are far too accommodating, to and of the world, and its sensibilities… And yeah, it gets them as far as being beta does with a woman…
Don’t recall the Chesterton quote.
CL
December 17, 2011 at 11:08 am
@Will
Probably because I act so immature for my age, sometimes.
It’s called “young at heart”. 😉 Or maybe it’s a Gen-X thing, because I’m like that too.
Svar
December 17, 2011 at 11:33 am
Anna @ AH: “How about “people with same-sex attraction”? It can be shortened to SSA.”
I have a better idea, how about “fags”? It can be shortened to fags.
Svar
December 17, 2011 at 11:35 am
“Don’t recall the Chesterton quote.”
Something about how an adult-faith doesn’t follow the trends of the world. But what would G.K. Chesterton know? He’s just a Papist and as we all know, Evangelicals know more about Christianity than Papists with all our “rungs of male human flesh”(heh heh).
Matthew
December 17, 2011 at 8:05 pm
I think we need a page in the header for creative derogatory terms:
anal-raider
butt pirate
pillow biter
warpig
etc.
Will S.
December 17, 2011 at 8:18 pm
@ Svar: Now, now; if ‘homo’ is offensive but ‘homosexual’ is not, as per Haley’s logic, surely ‘fag’ is unacceptable, and therefore, only the long form, ‘faggot’, is okay. 😉
@ Matthew: I’ve always found it funny that there’s a Texan alternative rock band who call themselves “Butthole Surfers”; I don’t even think they’re gay, they just use it ironically, in ’90s fashion…
Will S.
December 17, 2011 at 8:25 pm
@ CL: Ah yes, a generational thing, likely, indeed, we X-ers. 🙂
Will S.
December 17, 2011 at 9:10 pm
@ Matthew: Though, really, ‘sodomite’, as you mentioned over at Haley’s post, really is the perfect term. I think from now on, I’m going to refer to them as that.
CL
December 17, 2011 at 9:20 pm
You could post Butthole Surfers videos – then I can laugh and we can all get banned!
Will S.
December 17, 2011 at 9:34 pm
LOL!
I actually do like some Butthole Surfers songs, such as these two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTltKbfvnfI
Don’t they take you back to the ’90s? 🙂
CL
December 17, 2011 at 9:48 pm
LOL @ The Hurdy Gurdy Man. Ha ha ha ha!! I never really listened to them particularly, I must admit. The first one reminded me of this one (which I still find hilarious):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HypRUsywSo
chris
January 1, 2012 at 2:17 am
kathy; my 16 year old needs to realise that girls are better than games. But not necessarily now. with luck, he can avoid dating until he is ready to court. (About the time he starts grad school… he is a born academic).
Will: i have decided that computer games delay interest in girrlz. At 16 I was interested but very shy… and did not have a girlfriend right through high school. (And I’d love to know how you know Haley works in Holyweird).
The other bit of the equation is that society was less hypersexualised in the olden times.
No bikinis. No miniskirts…. and they still had problems.
chris
January 1, 2012 at 2:22 am
OK, if you want irony….
Will S.
January 1, 2012 at 3:51 pm
She has mentioned it at her blog, Chris.