I spend a good amount of time reading Chronicles comment threads because there is a wealth of information in the threads as there is in the articles themselves(once you ignore the whiny leftie bitches and the Stormfront/Neo-Norsemen types that show up to make their obligatory stinkies). Sometimes you find that many of the commenters are as intelligent(if not as well-read) as the writers themselves. A Chronicles thread truly is a gold mine.
That being said, through my perusal of these threads I came across the blog of a paleoconservative Roman Catholic man who goes by I Am Not Spartacus/SouthernVermontCrank. Usually, he writes about the contemporary Roman Catholic Church and how it has changed so much from the one that he was born into due to Vatican II, the Jewish Question in relation to the Church and Christendom, Catholic theology, and racial realities.
Recently he decided to approach a very difficult topic: “How many Christians get saved?” in the article Salvation or Damnation. It is your choice. When I first read this article, I was horrified and disturbed. I expect that you all will be as well. Through this article, I learned about not just how just God is, but how good He is. As IANS has mentioned, some of you will come away with this article thinking “Why did Christ create me just to have me damned?!” Well, as you know, God does not want any of us to be damned and He works to save sinners like us. However, He also gave us Free Will. Therefore, despite God’s intentions and actions, our salvation is ultimately up to us. Salvation or Damnation. Your choice.
the mercy of God is great. Yes, for those who fear Him, says the Prophet; but great is His justice for the one who does not fear Him, and it condemns all obstinate sinners.
Samson J.
February 25, 2012 at 5:23 pm
“How many Christians get saved?”
All of them – by definition.
Here I must part ways with you, Svar, as I regard the Roman Catholic faith as one that is badly in error, and actually evil if all its official tenets are taken literally. I don’t talk about this a lot in the Orthosphere, since individual Roman Catholics do a lot of good, in my view. However, for example: “Most Catholic adults confess badly at death, therefore most of them are damned” – ? A purely evil statement that only makes sense if one subscribes to Roman Catholic works-righteousness.
Svar
February 25, 2012 at 5:58 pm
“All of them – by definition.”
Could you explain? What about the Christians-in-name-only/nominal “Christians”/liberal “Christians” who only give lip service? Are they saved just like a true Christian who takes God, the Word, and the Faith seriously?
“Here I must part ways with you, Svar”
I understand. Will S.(Reformed) has acknowledged that we have far more in common with each other that we do to heathens or the leftist radicals in our churches even though we have some very real theological differences; in the end we’re both Christians. The same applies between you and me. I’m guessing that you are an Evangelical not Reformed, Lutheran, or Anglican, right?
“I regard the Roman Catholic faith as one that is badly in error, and actually evil if all its official tenets are taken literally.”
Which tenets are you referring to, Samson? I do find it very hard to believe that a church, especially the first church would be wrong or even evil for over 2000 years. No, I do not believe that the RCC is perfect or without error, but I do feel that it is more right than the other faith-traditions. But, I would like to hear which tenets you feel to be evil when taken literally so I can understand.
“However, for example: “Most Catholic adults confess badly at death, therefore most of them are damned” – ? A purely evil statement that only makes sense if one subscribes to Roman Catholic works-righteousness.”
Ahh, yes. The works deal. I suppose that this view is very legalistic and I also wasn’t too sure about it.
To be honest, when I read the article, I was filled with dread and didn’t know what to make of it. I still don’t.
Will S.
February 25, 2012 at 6:06 pm
I agree with Samson, that if someone truly is Christian, they are saved. Of course, there are many in the church who profess to be Christian, but haven’t in fact converted, in their hearts. I suspect that’s who IANS/SVC has in his sights, in particular.
I don’t believe in works-righteousness either, but I do accept the expression of faith as a choice, even though I believe in election, as well. But my explanation would take us beyond the scope of this blog, so I won’t get into it.
Svar
February 25, 2012 at 6:08 pm
“But my explanation would take us beyond the scope of this blog, so I won’t get into it.”
Why do you say that? What is the scope of this blog?
Will S.
February 25, 2012 at 6:11 pm
What I mean, Svar, is given that this is a pan-Christian-traditionalist blog, I’m not interested in getting into lengthy discussions delving deep into the intricacies of Reformed theology versus Catholic theology, and the like, because I’d rather focus on what we have in common rather than our differences.
Will S.
February 25, 2012 at 6:12 pm
I have used that phrase or a variant of it at least once before, in begging off going deeper into a certain subject.
will
February 25, 2012 at 6:58 pm
Errors in the doctrine of the catholic church:
Mary as Co-mediatrix with jesus the high priest interceding on our behalf
The immaculate heart of mary(even though the heart of men is desperately wicked)
The immaculate conception of mary preserving her from sin
Acceptance of prayer to saints
Devotions to the blessed virgin mary.
The pope as the head of the church.
The existence of purguatory.
etc
Will S.
February 25, 2012 at 7:17 pm
While I agree with will, I’m not going to get into this discussion myself, for the reasons already stated – we are a mix of Protestant and Catholic here, and I’m not interested in debating these matters here. But those who wish to, feel free.
Carnivore
February 25, 2012 at 8:56 pm
@Svar – this: http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/e003rp.LetterBeyond1.htm
The booklet at the end (Letter from Beyond) is also excellent. The various sections of the “letter” are matched with St. Thomas Aquinas’ explanation of hell and its inhabitants. A good Lenten read.
Svar
February 25, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Well, will, obviously I do not agree that your list is a list of errors, but a list of what the RCC does right and what the Protestant churches do wrong. However, I, just like Will S., I have no interest in debating these matters. Atleast we are all small-o orthodox and traditional Christians and Paleocons. That’s what we all have in common and that’s what matters to us.
Svar
February 25, 2012 at 9:37 pm
@ Carnivore
Thank you. I’m going to read it right now.
Svar
February 25, 2012 at 9:58 pm
@ Carnivore
I read the article. It was an interesting read and it brings up good points about the reality of Hell(like the radicals who preach that no one goes to Hell), but the article seemed a little cut off.
Carnivore
February 25, 2012 at 10:06 pm
@Svar
Yeah, unfortunately, she wants you to buy the booklet. The end is only an excerpt from the booklet. I’ve looked and haven’t found it online anywhere.
Kathy
February 25, 2012 at 10:44 pm
“Whether there are many or few that are saved, I say that whoever wants to be saved, will be saved; and that no one can be damned if he does not want to be. And if it is true that few are saved, it is because there are few who live well.”
And that is the absolute truth..
The article even put the fear of God into me, because sometimes I become a little lax with prayer and complacent.
The point of the whole article is to make people take stock of their lives.. There are most certainly many Catholics and Christians today who do not live good lives.. They believe in abortion, for instance.. Homosexuality…
Mny think that having sex before marriage is okay.. I know of a few (supposed) Catholics who think that.!
There are many today who spurn God completely and live a selfish and materialistic existence..
Catholics and Christians, if they honor God, love him above all else and pray and keep his commandments, will enter the kingdom of heaven… Along the way there may be many falls, but if one is sincerely sorry for their transgressions and makes an effort to lead a better life then God will bestow upon that person many graces and give them the strength needed to live a better life.
That piece IS meant to shock.. It’s a wake up call for us all.
The choice is ours.. Salvation or damnation.
will
February 26, 2012 at 1:02 am
@svar You can disagree with me about those issues. But I ask you one question:
Is it written in the bible those tenents of catholicism?
Truth is not democratic after all.
will
February 26, 2012 at 1:07 am
@Will S.
Sorry if I am trolling this thread but I just can’t tolerate falsehood. Its just intolerable for me since as a former atheist I just can’t tolerate bullshit (no offence).
Will S.
February 26, 2012 at 7:23 am
@ will: No worries. It’s just that we choose not to get into such discussions here, that’s all; not that they don’t have their place, elsewhere; I believe they certainly do.
I am not Spartacus
February 26, 2012 at 7:56 am
Dear Sir. Thank you for linking to my post. Who would ever have thought it might stir up controversy?
Dear Samson. I appreciate the honesty of your thoughts even though they are wildly wrong.
Jesus established His Church (Matt 16:18) and He promised to be with it until the end of time and He sent the Holy Ghost upon it to teach it all truth (Jn 16:13, Jn 14: 26, Acts 15:28) and I could add many other verses from the New Testament; suffice it to say that The Catholic Church is the Pillar and ground of truth (1 Tim 3:15) and for what you claim to be accurate it would have to have been the case that Jesus was either an abject failure or a liar and the Holy Ghost, the Third Person of The Blessed Trinity, similarly must be an abject failure or a complete liar if the Doctrines of Holy Mother Church are, as you claims they are, evil.
Dear Carnivore. I will provide the link in a moment. I did a copy and paste from the original text I read online.
I am not Spartacus
February 26, 2012 at 8:23 am
Here is the link. It has been on the net for quite some time but due to the confluence of several factors, the Born-Again-Ergo-Saved protestant polemics and the Hans urs Von Balthasar, “Dare we hope” (universal salvation) argument, the knowledge of such theology, to say nothing of its acceptane, is a thing too hard to hear for modern ears.
http://olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml
Luke 13: 23, 24 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter and shall not be able.
The Great Biblical Commentary of Cornelius A Lapide::
Ver. 23.—Then said one unto Him, Lord, are there few that be saved? Christ answered in the affirmative that few should be saved, as S. Luke signifies and S. Matt. plainly states, vii. 14. Isaiah speaks to the same effect, x. 22; xxiv. 13. Understand “few” by a comparison of all the inhabitants of the whole world; or of the faithful with the unbelieving, for all the latter are condemned for their unbelief, and equally many of the faithful for their wicked lives. The faithful alone are saved, and not all of these. But whether the greater number of them are saved or lost is the question. Some think that the greater number are saved, through the holy sacraments (which very many of them only receive at the end of their lives). Others think that most are lost because they live in a state of mortal sin. The rule of S. Augustine is that as men have lived, so they die. Of these opinions I have shown which is the true one, on S. James ii. 13, on the words “Mercy rejoiceth against judgment.” The judgment of S. Chrysostom, Homily xl. to the Antiochenes, who numbered 100,000 or more, is formidable. “In our city,” he says, “among so many thousands, scarcely can 100 be found who will be saved, for in the youngers is great wickedness, and in the elders deadness.” And S. Augustine (Bk. iv. ch. 53, against Dresconius) compares the Church to a threshing-floor, on which there is much more chaff than grain, i.e. more reprobate than elect.
The Catholic Church established by Jesus is The Ark of Salvation outside of which nobody will be saved; in that, it is like Noe’s Ark, outside of which nobody was saved.
Cyprian of Carthage
He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother”
Kathy
February 26, 2012 at 8:47 am
You need to tone it down a bit Spartacus, or not!.. For you will end up achieving the exact opposite of your aim
Demoralizing and crushing people does not encourage conversion. We are all sinners after all, reliant upon’s God’s mercy.
God is not a tyrant.. He is aware of man’s weakness. He asks only that we love him with all of our heart and to accept his commandments and to try and strive to live by them..
Your piece lacks balance.
Too much of the fire and brimstone stuff .
Time for a a cup of tea and a good lie down, methinks!
Svar
February 26, 2012 at 10:20 am
@ will
Once again, your arguments about Scriptural accuracy(no I do not give a damn about what the Original Greek said. I’ve heard arguments like that by Evangelicals in favor of egalitarianism and female priesthood) do not impress me. I’ve heard several Paleocon Papists say the same to their Prot brethren and I feel the exact same way. Of course, I do not expect you to be impressed by our arguments either, so drop it. You’re not going to proselytize me and I’m not going to proselytize you.
“Truth is not democratic after all.”
Of course the truth is not democratic. What is so democratic about the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church?
Svar
February 26, 2012 at 10:28 am
@ I am not Spartacus
“Dear Sir. Thank you for linking to my post. Who would ever have thought it might stir up controversy?”
LOL. We’re Paleocons. That’s all we do, stir up controversy. However, I, just like you, didn’t think that we’d stir up controversy within our own ranks.
“Jesus established His Church (Matt 16:18) and He promised to be with it until the end of time and He sent the Holy Ghost upon it to teach it all truth (Jn 16:13, Jn 14: 26, Acts 15:28) and I could add many other verses from the New Testament; suffice it to say that The Catholic Church is the Pillar and ground of truth (1 Tim 3:15) and for what you claim to be accurate it would have to have been the case that Jesus was either an abject failure or a liar and the Holy Ghost, the Third Person of The Blessed Trinity, similarly must be an abject failure or a complete liar if the Doctrines of Holy Mother Church are, as you claims they are, evil.”
Exactly. Our Church was founded by Christ. Not by Luther, not by Calvin, and not by Wesley but by Christ. I can believe that Luther, Calvin, and Wesley to be full of shit, but I can not believe the same of Christ.
Btw, IANS, thank you for the St. Leonard link.
Svar
February 26, 2012 at 10:37 am
Regardless of your faith-tradition, I think that we can all agree on the basic gist of his article: more people get damned than they do saved. Just think about how many non-believers are out there and how many lukewarm(neither hot nor cold) believers are out there and compare them to the number of true believers. The latter is a small minority. So IANS’s basic gist still stands that few are saved.
Gerry T. Neal
February 26, 2012 at 12:43 pm
The word “Christian” can mean “anybody who has been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit into the visible body of Christ”. In which case I am Spartacus’ argument that the majority of Christians are lost is, regrettably, probably true. The word “Christian” can also mean “anybody who, having heard the Gospel of how Jesus Christ, the Saviour God has given us, died for our our sins on the cross and rose again the third day, has internalized the Gospel by faith, placing his trust in Jesus Christ”. In that case Samson is right about all Christians being saved by definition.
I am not Spartacus
February 26, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Dear Kathy. 1 Peter 3:13 And who is he that can hurt you, if you be zealous of good?
I am of Irish-Injun extraction; birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim, and Irish-Injun males gotta act with abandonment towards the truth. Just be glad you are not near me on St. Paddy’s Day for that is when I get drunk and scalp protestants.
Tone it down?
You’d have better luck convincing a flying fish to build a nest in a tree.
Svar
February 26, 2012 at 5:05 pm
“I am of Irish-Injun extraction; birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim, and Irish-Injun males gotta act with abandonment towards the truth. Just be glad you are not near me on St. Paddy’s Day for that is when I get drunk and scalp protestants.”
Tis’ true, Kathy. That’s what Irish-Injun Papists do. Living in Aussie probably hasn’t put you in proximity with many of that breed.
By the way IANS, Kathy is a Papist just like us. Her scalp should be safe, huh? Hahaha.
I am not Spartacus
February 26, 2012 at 5:10 pm
Phil 2
1″ If there be, therefore, any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of charity, if any fellowship of the spirit, if any bowels of commiseration:
2 Fulfil ye my joy, that you be of one mind, having the same charity, being of one accord, agreeing in sentiment….
12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence) work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”
St. Paul’s plea to the Phil..s is rendered nugatory if Salvation is assured.
The usual Catholic expression is:
I have been saved -Rom 8:24, Eph 2: 5,8, Tit 3:5
I am being saved Phil 2:121 Peter 1.9
I will be saved Mt 10:22, Mt 24:13 Mt 8:35.
But to claim, I am saved, in isolation, and in opposition to that continuity of salvation theology contained in the Church, Tradition, and Scripture is to arrogate judgment of your own souls to your own selves – a decidedly unscriptural and unchristian idea.
And now, I will depart and I thank Svar for his charity and patience
I am not Spartacus
February 26, 2012 at 5:16 pm
Dear Svar and Kathy. My apologies. I did not know that Kathy was a passenger on The Barque of Peter.
Dear Kathy. I will just write that we Catholics are all alike in that we are each totally different and how you defend the Faith is, no doubt, different than how I defend the Faith owing to differences in sex and heritage, and, as Saint Matthias (He too the Bishopric of Judas) taught, “As to the soul, we must develop her power by faith and knowledge.”
Women are created to be Mothers; men are created to be warriors.
Dear Kathy Pax tecum.
Kathy
February 26, 2012 at 9:18 pm
It’s not that I disagree with your basic premise IANS, it’s just that you may well scare the horses so badly that they run off and we lose them altogether..
People need to be given hope and encouragement as well . Otherwise they may just throw their hands up in dismay and sink further into the mire, thinking they have little chance of getting to heaven anyway..
Our Lady appeared at Fatima ( apparitions approved by the Church as you would know)
She came to Fatima to save souls from Hell. The three children she appeared to were privy to a horrible vision of hell.. But her message too was one of hope. Pray for others so tthat they may be saved from the fires of hell.
The Curé of Ars, the patron of all parish priests, used to preach that the greatest act of charity towards your neighbor is to save souls from Hell. One day when he was hearing confession in a little church, the devil, in the form of a man, raged and screamed, “I hate you. I hate you because you stole from my hand 85,000 souls.
As for the Irish shennanigans.. My husband’s father was Irish.. County Caven Dublin. So am up with all the mischief that you lads get up too, especially on Paddy’s day my friend.
God Bless You and yours..
Svar
February 26, 2012 at 9:40 pm
“And now, I will depart and I thank Svar for his charity and patience”
You’re very welcome, IANS.
Svar
February 26, 2012 at 9:43 pm
“As for the Irish shennanigans.. My husband’s father was Irish.. County Caven Dublin. So am up with all the mischief that you lads get up too, especially on Paddy’s day my friend.
”
Ahh, Irish, that’s one thing. But have you ever met an Irish-Injun? That’s a different breed all together, Kathy. A whole new level of mischief if IANS is to be believed.
will
February 27, 2012 at 12:44 am
Anyway Svar could you give me your email? We will carry on our arguments there. You are welcome to proselytise me as I am to proselytise you. But truth can only be found when put to the test. After all what is true, is.
pb
February 27, 2012 at 1:28 am
Mary as Co-mediatrix with jesus the high priest interceding on our behalf
–Mary’s role as mediatrix is not equal to that of Christ. All Christians can be said to be mediators; the BMother of God participates in this role to a higher degree because of her holiness.
The immaculate heart of mary(even though the heart of men is desperately wicked)
-I suppose you will not find [extreme] depravity taught by any of the Church Fathers or the apostolic churches.
The immaculate conception of mary preserving her from sin
-Original sin.
Acceptance of prayer to saints
-Taught by all the apostolic churches.
Devotions to the blessed virgin mary.
-Prayer, not worship.
The pope as the head of the church.
-Christ is the head of the Church but the bishops are his representatives and hold teaching authority. The pope is the first among the bishops.
The existence of purguatory.
-Which is addressed in a Catholic apologetics tract if you are interested.
I am not Spartacus
February 27, 2012 at 7:36 am
Dear Kathy and Svar. I had to come back to read the comments and they are much appreciated.
I do agree with Svar as to his observations about Irish-Injuns. They don’t make many like us anymore; we are a trying breed.
As to County Caven Dublin, I’ll see that reference and raise it – my fam was kicked out of County Limerick for being incorrigible and so we settled in County Cork; that is, anything you can do I can do worse.
Pax tecum to both and thank you for an excellent exchange.
P.S. to pb. The Pope is not first among the Bishops. That is a heresy of the Orthodox. Only Peter was given the Keys.
Will S.
February 27, 2012 at 8:05 am
My ancestors were from Counties Donegal, Fermanagh, and Down – but Scotch Protestant colonists.
No Surrender! Remember the Boyne!
Svar
February 27, 2012 at 9:18 am
@ will
{Sigh…} I really, REALLY do not want to have this conversation on or off site. BUT. You asked nicely: svarragan@gmail.com
Can we talk about paleoconservatism and hawt chicks and strong drinks before we decide to have a personal holy war?
pb
February 27, 2012 at 7:34 pm
‘The Pope is not first among the Bishops. That is a heresy of the Orthodox. Only Peter was given the Keys.’
I think that is to quibble over the meaning of “first.”
Carnivore
February 27, 2012 at 11:16 pm
I did find a copy of the ‘Letter from Beyond’ here:
http://www.tldm.org/news6/hell2.htm
Not long, but a good read.
Kathy
February 28, 2012 at 8:36 am
“I did find a copy of the ‘Letter from Beyond’ here”
The Bayside Apparitions were not.. and never have been, approved
by the Church. So not a good source of reference really… Best to steer clear of that website.
the private messages of
Veronica Lueken
KNOWN AS: “Our Lady of the Roses”; “The prophecies of Bayside”; “Veronica Lueken.”
SEER: Veronica Lueken
LOCATION: Bayside, New York
YEARS: 1968 – 1995
STATUS: On November 4, 1986, Bishop John Mugavero of Brooklyn made a public declaration regarding the “Bayside Movement.” In part, this proclamation consist of:
1) “No credibility can be given to the so-called ‘apparitions’ reported by Veronica Lueken and her followers.”
2) “The ‘messages and other related propaganda contain statements which, among other things, are contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church, undermine the legitimate authority of bishops and councils and instill doubts in the minds of the faithful…”
3) “Because of my concern for their spiritual welfare, members of Christ’s faithful are hereby directed to refrain from participating in the ‘vigils’ and from disseminating any propaganda related to the ‘Bayside apparitions.’ They are also discouraged from reading any such material.”
4) “Anyone promoting this devotion in any way, be it by participating in the ‘vigils,’ organizing pilgrimages, publishing or disseminating the literature related to it, is contributing to the confusion which is being created in the faith of God’s people, as well as encouraging them to act againsy the determinations made by the legitimate pastor of this particular Church (c. 212, para. 1).”
Read more here.
http://www.catholicdoors.com/isit/isit08.htm
The Man Who Was . . .
February 28, 2012 at 3:32 pm
Which is the stronger motivator, heaven or hell?
http://www.bakadesuyo.com/which-is-a-stronger-religious-motivator-getti
Svar
February 29, 2012 at 11:34 am
@ Thursday
Hell, hands down.